Charlie Phillips is the head of Guardian Documentaries and Lindsay Poulton is its executive producer. They formed part of the team behind our documentary Black Sheep, which was nominated for an Academy Award in the Short Documentary category. You can watch Black Sheep in full here.
How did this project come about?
Charlie I’ve known the director, Ed Perkins, and all the team at Lightbox for years, and we’d planned for a while to try and do a film together for the Guardian Documentaries strand when the right one came along. Ed pitched me a few ideas, and the final one was a casual statement that he’d just met this guy called Cornelius with an interesting story and it might work as a short doc. I immediately said it sounded amazing and just got more and more excited as Ed developed the idea of combining observational documentary with reconstruction. I knew from early on how special it would be.
How long was this documentary in the making?
Charlie There was quite a long pre-production phase but otherwise Ed and his colleagues really nailed the shoot and the edit in a remarkably short time. From our first conversation to the film being delivered, it was a few months, and then we had a long period from late 2017 to October 2018 of screening the film in festivals and other events.
What message did you want to convey with this film?
Charlie On the subject matter, the complexity of identity for young men coming to terms with changes in masculinity in modern UK. The film is obviously a lot about race, but people identify with it on wider levels – how to relate to parents, how you find yourself as a young person, how to love yourself, and of course how to be young man against an uncertain social backdrop.
On the style, it was important to us that you hear directly from Cornelius - this is his story and we should only hear it in his words. And we wanted people to have it conveyed to them directly with him staring at us. So you can’t escape, even if that makes you uncomfortable. We wanted people watching to feel directly responsible, and that’s also why we don’t let viewers off the hook by giving them an easy answer on what happened next. You’re left feeling uncertain.
How is this film different to others you have worked on? What were the big challenges in making it?
Charlie The combination of observation and reenactment is a bit different to what might be our normal style, but other than that it felt natural to be working with Ed and his team on this. We had a really similar documentary sensibility. I had one of the most instinctive feelings that this film would be a massive success, creatively and also in terms of wider public recognition. It was one of the smoothest processes we’ve had on a doc – the first rough cut we saw was very similar to the final version and we didn’t have many notes. It was that good!
Lindsay No two films are ever the same and none are easy. This film draws on both drama and documentary sensibilities and we had careful conversations early in the pre-production phase about the objectives as well as the style and sensibilities of this genre-blending approach. Though the film uses dramatic reenactments to visualise Cornelius’s memories, these were approached with a documentary sensibility, using the actual locations where events had taken place, as well as using non-actors from the local area. I think that brings a visceral authenticity to the film.
Can you describe how you felt when you heard you were nominated for the award?
Charlie It was a really exciting surprise. This is something we hoped for but could never have expected. Mostly, I was just very happy for Cornelius and Ed after their bravery in telling this film, and excited it would get a wider audience.
Can you tell us what it was like to walk the red carpet, and how the ceremony unfolded?
Charlie It’s a strange experience but brilliant. Documentary making isn’t very glamorous normally and suddenly you’re at one of the most glam events out there. You turn a corner and there are ranks of photographers and film crews and loads of people above you in the public viewing areas staring. You’re suddenly in celeb-land, and you feel like an intruder, but it’s really nice that we got there early so we spent ages wandering about on the carpet and just taking it in. Then you take a load of photos with the Oscar statues on a different bit of red carpet and you’re into the main Dolby Theater. We spent a bit of time looking over the balcony at the real celebs arriving. The ceremony itself is long but it didn’t feel it because it’s all so unfamiliar and fascinating and there’s always something interesting going on – you knew Lady Gaga could perform at any moment and you didn’t want to miss that.
Lindsay It was surreal to be on the other side of something that is so famous and recognisable! It was a much bigger operation than I had anticipated: the red carpet is a huge, well-oiled machine. There were a lot of security and staff, from publicists to make-up artists and managers, all making sure that everyone and everything was moving smoothly. Not only guests but staff too were dressed in ball gowns and tuxedos. It had a friendly atmosphere, with everyone offering their congratulations and best wishes.
What were the most memorable moments of the night?
Charlie Highlights were Gaga performing Shallow and Olivia Colman’s speech, which was even more amazing to be in the room for. It made me very emotional, which could have been exhaustion, but was also that we all feel like we’ve grown up with her.
Lindsay One of the most exciting moments was hearing the floor manager call “15 seconds till live!” as the show was about to begin and be broadcast around the world. I felt like I was holding my breath and trying to savour every moment of this remarkable experience.
I found myself next to Rami Malek’s mother as we were all filtering out of the theatre at the end of the show. I felt that must have been such a proud moment for a mother and I said “Congratulations!” to her.
Each time an award was called, dozens of people dotted all around the auditorium would jump up and cheer. Behind every single category was a huge team of talented people who were there on the night to celebrate great achievements. That was a really exciting feeling and also humbling.
Oscars aside, what has the reception been like for Black Sheep?
Charlie It’s had an incredible reaction – we’ve had great viewing numbers for it, especially since nomination, but more importantly, people have related it back to their own lives in a big way. They connect with Cornelius and, especially at the in-person screenings, love to hear him talk about what happened next. People want to speak to him for hours. It’s heartening that people understand this is a film about empathy and searching for love and connection rather than thinking it’s only a film about hate and violence.
Why do you think it’s so important that films tackle important issues such as those raised in Black Sheep?
Charlie Documentaries are one of the best formats out there for helping people to feel connected and empathetic to the stories of those they might not normally hear from. That’s what Guardian Documentaries is all about: bringing stories to the attention of our audience who are interested in, but might not be part of, communities that are less amplified in the media. Because the Guardian is a global platform, we can reach gigantic audiences.
Do you feel the documentary medium is better suited to exploring these issues, compared to other film genres?
Charlie I’ve worked in documentary for my whole career so I may be biased, but I think it’s the definitive artform of our age – there’s no better way to tell stories that are authentically voiced, community based and come from a place of wanting to make a difference. I also think documentary is currently the most exciting form in pushing the boundaries of film-making. Within the Guardian, our documentaries are like the moving-image version of our Long Reads strand, getting into subjects in depth.
What is the most challenging aspect of the production process?
Charlie Documentaries aren’t scripted so it’s all about waiting to see what happens on camera in a shoot. But we work with our film-makers to make sure their stories will be as clear as possible and also that we avoid too much unnecessary use of sit-down interview, talking heads and “voice of God” voiceover. Those aren’t bad techniques, but for what we do where hearing directly from participants and seeing their lives is important, we are all about observational material as far as possible.
Lindsay I think that the most compelling documentaries tell small stories that offer a wide window onto a bigger subject, and Black Sheep is a great example of this.
In producing documentaries we have a special set of responsibilities. We have a duty of care to our contributors, to treat them with sensitivity and convey their stories in a clear and considered way. We also have a responsibility to our audience, to uphold the values of the Guardian by treating stories fairly and intelligently, while offering depth and insight into the issues of the day.
What’s next on the agenda?
Charlie More exciting films! We’re always keen for top film-makers to be pitching us, and we have some great films in the works, coming out every few weeks on the Guardian site. We’re also looking at how we do the very occasional feature doc, and have our first of those coming to festivals in Spring.
